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might have suggested it to him some time -- he would reject it. He would deny it. He would say, “Oh, stop your nonsense. This is some more of your childish and academic musing. The fact is, it's a tough hard world, and the rules and regulations are made by those who have the power to make them, and they make them.” He said, “I'm not playing anything, I'm building up a base --”

You know. I'll end this incoherent rambling by saying that I came out of that experience, in my fight with Adam, ironically with more respect for him than for anybody else involved in that fight, with the exception of J. Raymond Jones. And it was because he was honest in his corruption. You know, he was forthright and direct.

Well, after he had made these remarks about the powerlessness of Jones, did you talk to Jones about this conversation?

Oh, sure.

And that specific point too?

Oh sure.

You told him what Adam said.

I told Ray about my conversation with him. You want to know what Ray Jones did?

Yes.

He laughed. He laughed. Ray Jones was a highly sophisticated man. I think he made some comment, to the effect that, you know,