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And I told Mac this later, by the way -- that my first
impression of him, when he spent that day with us at the Herter
Commission was: my God, I wish he had a little more doubt; I wish
he had a little more sense that things are not necessarily as clear
and as direct and as simple as he is stating them to us.
Strangely enough, I didn't dislike him. I was just scared.
And I think that was in the Kennedy -- before Kennedy was assassinated,
around Bay of Pigs, although it might have been even before Bay of
Pigs, but anyway, then I didn't have any more direct contact with
him again until after he came over as president of Ford Foundation.
And he remembered that, plus something else. And we talked, after
he became president of the Ford Foundation, about a number of things,
but obviously particularly about MARC, and what I was doing here. I
think, by the time he came as president, we had already gotten our
first grant, but he invited a number of us -- Roy Wilkins, Whitney
Young, Vernon Jordan, I don't know whether Vernon was in on that--
but a number of us, to talk about an expanded role for the Ford
Foundation in the whole civil rights area.
And I liked his manner then. Soon after that, when we were
alone together, I told him what my initial impressions of him were,
when he came before the Herter Commission, and we laughed, etc.
((I'm getting to the point.)
Then a few years ago, Halberstam's book came out, THE BEST
AND THE BRIGHTEST, and I took it with me on a cruise. And I read
it. And I should have agreed with Halberstam, because certainly
his position on Vietnam and a lot of other things was similar to
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