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Ray Jones didn't,, because Ray had political, specific political responsibilities and goals. Jim Dumpson, I think, was the commissioner of welfare at the time and certainly he didn't want to.

It was a consensus of every one of us, that, first, younger men (at that time I was young,) but there were younger men who, we felt, should be the public leaders of this Group, and who, we thought, would continue communication with us.

Rightly or wrongly, we thought that Bob Mangum, in the light of his experience, should head the group. So we brought together or selected the young men. Interestingly enough, we didn't bring them together in Ben's apartment. I don't know where they were first brought together.

And that's another interesting point -- we were not active in the actual organization of the procedures of organization. We were only active in terms of suggesting the qualities, the characteristics, and making suggestions as to some of the individuals, and Bob took over, and got the group organized, and working fairly well, but limited by -- well, this is my personal opinion -- limited by the fact that he had inadequate communication with the original sponsoring group.

Bob, who apparently had, understandably, more specific ambitions -- you know, he certainly was not going to be defeated by what happened to him when he was deputy commissioner of police. He went on from that to being, I think, commissioner of the State Commission on Human Rights, and from that position, I think he went on to being a judge. He's now a judge.