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Not only that, but then there's a whole question of bureaucracy in an organization, which is another matter which we have not touched on at all. There are writings and studies on this which make -- unions are not too different from other institutions -- large institutions -- which tend to become bureaucratic, can't operate. Suddenly everything is on computer. You're coming in to negotiations and people come in with all the figures and you've got specialists, and it's a big problem. You're dealing with pension funds that have a billion dollars. For example I remember talking inside our own union about that. We have a pension fund that's got eleven billion dollars and the person in charge of it is now meeting with people on management side and corporate trustees, and he is now in on those kind of things. In conversations people say, “You make only that? What's going on here?” People begin to -- their ideas begin to develop in their minds. “This is not what I have to do, maybe I'll do something else” kind of thing.

Makes the ideal democracy seem --

Difficult. It's very very difficult. Ideal democracy? Never. But it's very hard to -- I said it's hard to be democratic. It's very very hard. It's easier to be autocratic, bureaucratic.

When you have the cultural factors reinforcing passivity, makes it that much easier.

Yes. When the whole question of race enters in to the thing, that's another -- another -- major problem. Many unions never face that. Some did. I remember vividly -- I think I mentioned it -- going to a reception for the guy from Cambodia who wrote the book (Shawcross) at the home of somebody, I remember -- it doesn't matter. Irving Howe was there. It was after the Vietnam war ended. He said to me, “What's happening in your union?” I said, “We're doing all right.” He says, “Are you prepared for the changes that are going to take place?” I said, “What changes?” “You think you're going to be this way all the time? You're going to have problems when Davis steps down.” There was never any thought of Davis stepping down at that time. I said, “No. We have it under control.” The history of organizations is such that it was almost a given. There was a good possibility something happened.

Last question. How does it make you feel -- all of these things that we've talked about -- about the prospects for revitalizing the labor movement today?

I am not too optimistic. I'm not too optimistic for many reasons. First of all it would be very hard to do what we did. Secondly