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the ball is, the power -- you know to turn a union around, to turn a labor movement around. See I don't want to go on what's existing now. I cannot see the present leadership of the labor movement moving in an aggressive manner to deal with the real serious problems that they recognize exist. I don't think they're capable of dealing with it. If they were capable of dealing with them, there would have to be much much more of a shuffling around to do things differently. They're not going to do that.

You know I saw nothing, but Bill Serrin told me that Lane Kirkland's salary was raised from 110 to 150 thousand dollars. Now, is it reward for good work? Is it a percentage increase that everybody got? The fact that they would do that means that they don't really care about how members react. It's like the way they used to go to Florida. It's the same thing like the foreign policy Canter thing. Like Danny Canter tells me today that they're desperately in the AFL-CIO headquarters trying to keep moving, you know, to go ahead in the direction. They spent so much time and energy doing those things, which are so really unimportant in terms of the interest of working people. They spend so much time, effort, energy, money! So, you see, I can't expect it from them. I don't see on the horizon the kind of unions that would be aggressive to change. There are some people who want to do many things. The McEntees -- regardless of our problems with him in Ohio. There are a number of unions where they want to do the right thing. But, it always comes down to -- when push comes to shove -- they all have a reason why they can't tackle the problem. Either they need the AFL-CIO for this, or they need them for that. Or they're going to need them next year. It all becomes a --


What about pressure from below?


Well I don't see that pressure. Generally I think that unions are just trying to stay alive now, rather than overturn the union in a direction, you know, to change the labor movement. I think that workers are thinking more in terms of, “How am I going to keep my job?” I don't know, but I would assume, that the largest section of workers in this union (Local 342) are the butchers. When they sit down and think about it, must be very scared -- if they sit down and think. There must be many of them who -- you see a sampling of the alert people who probably are constantly thinking, often thinking, about these problems.


Do you have any optimism about the long term prospects of the labor movement?

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