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out that it was a Bread and Roses show, they put heat on the museum about canceling the show. The museum people stood fast, and they had the show. Not only did they have the show, but they invited me to come up and give the lecture!

In addition to “The Working American,” the Memorial Art Museum is a beautiful museum. I never forget, I walked in to the Memorial Art Center -- the members at that opening, we had like 100 members there who had never been in a museum in their lives -- and there, as you came in to this wonderful, beautiful museum, there was this big panel which said, “The Working American -- An Exhibition organized by the Bread and Roses Cultural Project District 1199 Hospital Workers Union, is traveling through the Smithsonian Institution,” etcetera. In another area of the museum they put up originals, Louis Hine, because they had them from the Eastman School. There were a number of programs that were arranged. So that it was a, you know, it was a very important kind of thing. In addition, the fact that the art community fought the hospital managements, who are very influential on the museum trustees.

So the next major exhibition that I can talk about is Lawrence, 1912. That, I think, took place the following year, in 1980.

Let me stop you for one second and ask about how you developed the ideas for these various projects.

Well the planning for the exhibitions, the planning for Bread and Roses, was done in that planning period. In other words, you cannot just come out with a show and say, “Next month we're going to work on this show.”

I understand that. But Lawrence, which was all ready a year in to the program, maybe you planned that in 1979.

Remember that the program for Bread and Roses was a two year program in the humanities. It was a one year program in the arts that was renewed for another year. So the two year program, the proposal, had to tell in every area what we were doing. It had a time line. You might want to some time look at the proposal itself, because it's a very very fine proposal. It reads well, too. It's very interesting kind of thing because it develops the concept of why we want to do it, and how we're going to do, and what we're going to do, and who's going to be in this, and who's going to do this and that, and what's it going to cost. You know, everything is done far in advance. Some of the things that we did you could do in two months. But most of the