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But what I'm interested in, was high school somehow a different experience or a new experience?

High school was basketball to me. I did very little homework. I think I learned very little there because I was not interested in studying. I can't tell to this day whether it was, I'm reacting to my brothers by blocking out things or what, but I was not a very good student.

Do you remember any particular academic experiences that were in some way humiliating? Teachers making fun?

No, no. What I do remember is this: I invariably would sit in the back of the room, and I could not see the black board. My eyes were terrible. I was nearsighted, and I had to copy off what the homework was when they'd write what the homework assignment was. But the idea that I should wear glasses, you know, sissies wear glasses. So I went for many years without seeing what was happening until I went -- this probably is true of a lot of people. It's not because they didn't want to get glasses, but the idea of glasses was a sort of a humiliating sissy kind of experience.

And so your main interest was basketball. And you played what position?

In high school I was a center. I was 5'10”. I was very tall. I was very tall for my age. No, because we didn't have a very good team.

But did you play all around the city with different teams?

Yes, we played all high schools. In the second year I was the captain. I wasn't a great basketball player, but I was a good, steady - - you know, those were the days when the scores were like 14-12, you know. You scored six points a game, you were a high scorer. Ten points, you were really ready to go anyplace.

Did you play schools from black neighborhoods?

Well, I don't recall neighborhoods being that black at that time. The only neighborhood that was black that we played was Boys’ High.

It even then was black?

It had whites on the team, but it had blacks on the team, too. But that's the only neighborhood I know. Hamilton had some blacks