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on the team, it was also in that area, in a black neighborhood, but we played against blacks, not many, not many.

Do you remember your racial attitudes?

They probably were very bad, but I don't remember. I'm sure they were very bad, and I don't think -- it was politics that changed my racial attitude and opened me up to all kinds of things.

Your brothers at this time, Jack and Phil, were already becoming politically interested. When you listed those topics that they debated in high school --

But those were the things that everybody would debate.

League of Nations.

Yes, but that's what you debate. It isn't selected by the students; it's a standard kind of thing. Every year you had the same. You could be on different sides. One time you take this side, one time you take this side.

Were they developing political interests at this time, and did it have an impact on you?

Their political interests did not have an impact on me at this time. A little later it did. I came into politics through their political interests, through identification with certain magazines that they got and told me about, or going to the house, and then I became interested in it. They were becoming politically interested. I then moved closer, because certain things happened that brought me closer to them.

Before we get to that, I'm just trying to see if there is anything else. Did you take up the instruments in high school? You used to play the saxophone. When did you start doing that? How did you get into that?

My brothers were playing instruments. Jack played the drums, and Phil played the saxophone. We got into instruments because it was an economic thing. You got into instruments because if you played an instrument, you could have a band and you'd go away for the summer and earn some money. My brothers played instruments in high school. They were in the high school band. They did it as part of their interests, and then they found that they formed a band, and the next thing you know, they're playing in a band and playing in the