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on the team, it was also in that area, in a black neighborhood, but we
played against blacks, not many, not many.
Do you remember your racial attitudes?
They probably were very bad, but I don't remember. I'm sure
they were very bad, and I don't think -- it was politics that changed
my racial attitude and opened me up to all kinds of things.
Your brothers at this time, Jack and Phil, were already becoming
politically interested. When you listed those topics that they debated
in high school --
But those were the things that everybody would debate.
League of Nations.
Yes, but that's what you debate. It isn't selected by the
students; it's a standard kind of thing. Every year you had the same.
You could be on different sides. One time you take this side, one time
you take this side.
Were they developing political interests at this time, and did it
have an impact on you?
Their political interests did not have an impact on me at this
time. A little later it did. I came into politics through their political
interests, through identification with certain magazines that they got
and told me about, or going to the house, and then I became
interested in it. They were becoming politically interested. I then
moved closer, because certain things happened that brought me closer
Before we get to that, I'm just trying to see if there is anything
else. Did you take up the instruments in high school? You used to
play the saxophone. When did you start doing that? How did you get
My brothers were playing instruments. Jack played the drums,
and Phil played the saxophone. We got into instruments because it
was an economic thing. You got into instruments because if you
played an instrument, you could have a band and you'd go away for
the summer and earn some money. My brothers played instruments
in high school. They were in the high school band. They did it as part
of their interests, and then they found that they formed a band, and
the next thing you know, they're playing in a band and playing in the
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