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been working on an Op Ed page feature, and he said, “I'll see that the Op Ed feature runs tomorrow.”

And what was the feature about?

Dissent in unions, RWDSU-1199 kind of thing.

So the upshot of it was that Dennis was elected.

That Dennis was elected.

He was elected in 1989.

And Georgianna was defeated.

And Georgianna Johnson was defeated. And what this meant was that in the period of three years, 1199 had had two hotly contested and bitter disputes in which black women presidents were removed. There were accusations that this represented, on the part of the successful candidates who were spearheaded by white males predominantly, that this amounted to racism and sexism. Is there any truth to that?

One could interpret it that way, but on the other hand, one should recognize that Turner had been a disaster, that Georgianna, in the end of her campaign, had moved over to Turner and was joining with her in fighting us. So that while it's true we did oppose two black women, Dennis came forward as the president, a man but a Latino, and he was surrounded by many black women who ran on his slate. It was a protective device that we had to use to keep the union. It wasn't a question of -- I think that the choice was limited for us, and we made that choice.

Were there areas in the relationship between the older white leadership and the emerging leadership represented first by Doris Turner and then by Georgianna Johnson? Were there areas where you, looking back, wish that things could have been done differently, different choices made, different ways of dealing with people, or do you think that's just the way it had to play out?

It's not that this is the way it had to play out. This is the way that we played, based upon our backgrounds, our involvement in the union from the earliest days, from back in the fifties, and our getting used to a certain approach with Davis, who we always felt could be counted on. As a matter of fact, it was generally said that Davis was blacker than blacks, and his support for Doris was one of the contributing factors in everything that happened. He made a mistake,