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Doris, I think, knew that, but Doris knew one other thing, that she had Davis under her thumb, that she could do anything, which she did. I'll never forget a debate between Doris and Davis at Montefiore. Davis was then so weak and so ill, he could barely speak. He couldn't speak logically or vigorously. He came to the debate. We just told him, “Don't debate. You're not capable physically.” “I'm going to do it.” He comes, and they make mincemeat out of him right before workers. Some of the workers are part of the far left. Montie Callan, I remember her.

And the subject of the debate was the election?

The election, the election, sure --

[TAPE INTERRUPTION]

We were talking about a debate at Montefiore in 1986.

Right. Yes. And when it was over, Jesse was there with me. We told Davis it was a big mistake. He realized that he wasn't able to -- but on the way home, we had a driver, I forget his name now. He had driven for Elliott.

Herb Aponte.

Aponte. We called him Aponte the spy. Aponte was in the car. He was supporting Doris. He listened to what we were saying and told Doris, and we were going through what he did wrong and how it was a disaster. That story went back to Doris. So I don't know where this ends, but I'll give you whatever you want.

Well, there are some people who say that same pattern was again mirrored in the relations with Georgianna Johnson and so it represented not just an isolated incident based on two personalities, but a longer term [cross talk].

Well, the thing with Georgianna is that, you know, we pushed her to run because we needed a candidate. We knew she had limitations. We didn't realize how limited she was. When those limitations began to appear boldly and were affecting us, we felt that she couldn't do these -- for example, to get her ready for a meeting with the press to talk, or how to talk to workers, I got Ossie to set out a schedule of hours that he would devote to meeting with her, teaching her to talk to people, what to say, and how to say it, how to say it. He spent several weeks on this, and at one point there was going to be a debate on television, and I was telling Dennis maybe we