Session: 123456789101112131415161718192021222324         Page 542543544545546547548549550551552553554555556557558559560561562563564565566567568 of 592

Running a union on that kind of emergency basis and trying now to get the funds to do the increase, the first time in many, many, many years, I think that by July the dues increase will be coming in and the union will be able to expand staff and other things that will make it more effective. But the whole question that you raise of a democratic union under those conditions, where the union is so big, is still a problem of how you deal with it.

You mentioned some steps that were taken within the last two years to break the union up into divisions which have more autonomy, more opportunity for member participation. Was that a positive development?

That was a positive development, and I think that it was historically very important. But as the union grows now, there's a big emphasis on geography, where the institution is, because the nature of health care is changing. The hospital is declining as a focal space. It has centers all over the place delivering care right on the spot. So you've got to go to those centers. You have to have people who represent the workers in those centers.

Another thing, the membership is being spread out all over the place. You also need a greater effort to train people. That, I think, has not been done enough, the whole question of training staff, of how to work and what to do and understand.

When you were executive secretary, part of your responsibility was staff education, is that correct, education in addition to publications and culture?

I don't recall that education was my -- I have been involved in it. At various times we had education directors. I remember, going back a while, that we tried out things, like we would have retreats in Pauling, where we'd go away for a weekend, and I would bring in people who would not merely lecture to people, but would run a program, like George Brooks, who died recently, from Cornell, others who would come, Brendan Sexton, he was the education director of the UAW. I remember him. I remember his wife. Who would meet with us and develop a training thing, including a training manual, and we'd go around the hospitals with staff people to find out how they operate, to know better. That was a long time ago. The union was much smaller.

Do you feel that sort of thing needs to be done [cross-talk]

Oh, it needs to be strengthened considerably. Strengthened.