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Let's go back to -- you talked today about Leon Davis and about Dennis Rivera. Can you compare the two of them and sort of summarize their strengths and weaknesses and the differences? They're certainly two very different personalities.

Well, the personalities are very different. Dennis is a very outgoing person who attracts people all over the place. Davis was more quiet, ingrown, and Davis was more philosophical in his understanding of what might happen. Dennis very often is reacting to what's happening and do it, or he'll think that the contract's going to expire, know that's the problem, but it's a difference between a longer approach and a shorter approach.

Dennis was much more talented in reaching political people. Davis would avoid that. It was not his thing. Davis, on the one hand, because of his accent, would say to me at a time when we were becoming known -- remember, nobody knew us at the beginning -- becoming known because of the strike, and people wanted to talk to him, and he would say, “Moe, you speak to the press.” He feared TV or radio.

That's interesting. We're talking about two people who are immigrants with accents, but they handle it in very different ways.

Dennis, on the other hand, would be terrific in front of a mike in an interview. His mind was very quick, and very often he would go off on a tangent, and people would call me and say, “Explain this.” But, you know, people like Steve [Steven] Greenhouse at the Times --

They're labor reporters.

They're labor reporters. They go to him all the time because it's important. It's one of the most important unions in the city and the state. So anything that's happening, they want to know what does 1199 think. Other unions, some other unions are very jealous of 1199, which is a problem, and they were jealous under Davis, too, but on the other hand, Davis didn't have much confidence in other unions and very often -- Dennis plays more -- he works harder to unite other unions who believe in his ideas, who follow his position. Although with the Central Labor Council, he is very, very effective, and then with the state, he's very close.

Particularly now, with SEIU, we are a powerful force not only in New York and upstate, we are a powerful force nationally and internationally. Remember that most of the districts in health care in SEIU are headed by people who learned under Davis and who come