Session: 123456789101112131415161718192021222324         Page 542543544545546547548549550551552553554555556557558559560561562563564565566567568 of 592

out of that tradition. So that's a big thing. Dennis is a member of the executive board of the AFL-CIO. Dennis is everywhere.

Could you have imagined Davis having been on the executive board?

Oh, Davis, I could never -- you know, the period, Davis' period dealt with George Meany. We had problems. Dennis is coming at a time John Sweeney is regarded, and knows Sweeney well and all of those people.

Now, you mentioned some of Davis's shortcomings. What about Dennis?

He has some shortcomings which I would not want to discuss on tape.

You did mention that he is really skilled in the political end of 1199's work. Earlier you had referred to the perception by some people that 1199 has moved in the direction -- placed too great an emphasis on the political and not enough on mobilizing members and having power in the workplace through member participation. That's a perception on the part of some critics of 1199. Is there any justice to that?

There may be some, but you have to see the picture. You're dealing in health care today. First of all, it's the problems related to this industry that are very special, although many other industries have similar -- have problems. I don't know if they're -- here you have an industry that's changing. The whole question in the past that we were tied to reimbursement from the state, it was automatic, that's gone. You've got to fight for every dollar.

So you've got to find a way of reaching people, and that means Dennis has developed contacts with people on both sides of the aisle who respect him and who want his help, whether it's a [George] Pataki or - - we've never had any relationship with [Rudolph] Giuliani. Giuliani dislikes us, and we've disliked him.

Now, is that ability to work with Republicans something that Dennis brought to 1199 for the first time?

Not for the first time, but he expanded it. Remember that we won collective bargaining because of our alliance with Nelson Rockefeller. Had we not done that, we would never have been able to get the law passed, and that was crucial, and we did it at a particular time, when Rockefeller was running for governor, for reelection. Most