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It's a good thing for an organizer.

Good thing for a person. It can't hurt you.

What was Bella like then?

Bella was like she is now, but less so.

Did she wear hats?

No. Bella was a good person. She was a good person, and she's a good person now. She was always a leader. Bella was one of many people I could count on to come for activities that we were doing at the union, demonstration, etc., a problem. Bella was in Congress, and Bella would come and do things.

I haven't seen her in a long time. I have to call her to tell her about Maia. But Bella just made a wrong move when she ran for the Senate. She almost made it, but she lost it and then there's nothing around for her, so she's doing the lecture circuit. That's not for Bella.

The thing I want to ask you about at this point, we're now into '36, '37, '38. You told me a story about Suspended Swing, the band. If I remember correctly, this was the period when you got going with Suspended Swing.

No, no, no. The band, Suspended Swing, comes in '41.

My chronology is wrong.

When we are kicked out -- with the Rapp-Coudert Committee, although we had a band before, but it wasn't Suspended Swing. It wasn't looked as something for an income for me, because others might have other jobs.

Right. So then maybe we should talk about Spain at this point because I guess it's July of 1936.

I can't tell you too much about Spain that you don't know. I can only tell you what we did. Spain had a fantastic impact on us, on everybody. It was the quintessence of good versus evil. One of the things in my life is that I have always sought to put things into a framework of good versus evil. Sometimes that can be very effective. Sometimes it's not as simple as that. But if you're in a movement, you pretty much must have that because there can't be in betweens. You can't move people on the basis of maybe you're right and maybe you're wrong. Whether it's in a student movement or in a union, see a union -- I don't know if our approach to unions was different from