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some time, not too long. It was not that shocking to me, as I recall. Remember, before that was the invasion in Finland, but that we wiped away, because Finland was controlled by Baron Mannerheim, a fascist colonel. For some strange reason, we were able to figure that out for defense reasons. That must have happened after the Pact. Another move to protect themselves against Nazi Germany in the long run.

This was also the period of the Rapp-Coudert hearings, and I guess maybe you could say something first about what you think the relationship was between the Nazi-Soviet Pact and the beginning of those kind of red scare investigations, because the chronology is quite close.

Well, the logic is also quite close. It was a good time to take off on communists, and those in the legislature, like Rapp and Coudert, who were conservative Republicans, decided that this was a good time to let go on the City Colleges. All they needed was to find the opportunity, and the opportunity presented itself with the appearance of William Canning's testimony. So he probably defected as a result of the Pact, among other things. He also was concerned about his chances of promotion in the History Department. So once they had a person who would spill the beans, it was a very, very fine opportunity to do so.

What was the significance of the Bertrand Russell case, if any, to this whole process? I read somewhere recently about the Board of Higher Education had invited Russell to be a professor, and there was an outcry, “How could you have such an extremist invited to be a professor?”

Same time?

1940.

1940. I'm trying to remember it, relate it in the period itself. However, you could still try to get civil libertarians to support you on a Bertrand Russell case, because he was a very, very distinguished person, and you were talking in a college, intellectual atmosphere. Remember that City College had a very, very strong history of free speech and fighting to defend free speech, and there were a lot of liberals there who were involved in the Anti-Fascist Association. They could be counted on to support Bertrand Russell, but not the other thing. Very few people would come out and support the thing once Rapp-Coudert got under way, because it was then very dangerous to try to do that.