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associations, but you can manage there. But if you're dealing with department stores, you're dealing with more powerful interests, who were not interested so much in live and let live with you.

You went to work for 65 in 1950.

Yes. See, 1250 was running into real trouble, and it met 65's need to make another merger. See, 65 is a union that grew that way, by absorbing other unions, as well as organizing, but over the years, if you examine 65's history, you'll find a theme that runs right through it, this whole question of working out mergers with other unions.

[Tape interruption] -- I'm into 65, and 1250 is absorbed, it's not clear what I'm supposed to do anymore. It's like 1250 remains as a local, but it's inside 65 and it's no longer a power. Once you unite with them at the beginning, they pay attention to Nick Carnes, but Nick Carnes knows that he's not going to stay for very long in any kind of position of power. One thing about 65 people they make no bones about. They're all sweet talk when they're talking about merger, but that's the story about mergers anyway. The power is what -- it was not clear what I was going to do, but they knew what they wanted me to do. They wanted me to be working out of Union Voice, which was their publication, but to work on education and cultural programming, and social-cultural affairs, and to revive and revitalize what they had been doing. So that's what I started to do.

What kinds of products did you get involved with?

I have the documents on this. They had a variety group. I think I discussed that. With that variety group I raised the idea of a nightclub.

Right. We talked about that.

Okay. In the nightclub, we had chorus, we had softball leagues, we had classes -- all kinds of things, a lot of activities -- children's programs, kiddie carnival. And I would at the same time, without knowing anything -- I could write, but I didn't type -- I would write the stories on these activities for the paper, and I operated at a desk with the paper people. Now, the paper people included, at that time, the editor was Irving Baldinger. He's the guy who anonymously reviewed “Thursdays ‘Til Nine.” On the staff was Bernie Stephens, now retired, later moved to RWDSU Record as the editor and then moved to Public Employee as the editor. I got him that job. Then there was Marty Solow, who was a very, very gifted writer and editor, who is now a big wheel in advertising, who taught me how to put out a paper, when I