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Now the RW [RWDSU] is in or out?

It's in. [tape interrupted] See, what's interesting here is that remember, you've got now this being given out by the management, and really the same thing being given out by the RWDSU.

What we're looking at are two very slick pieces of red-baiting literature, two colors, fancily produced, that were distributed at the time of these various fights. So when 1250 comes into 65 in 1950 --

It's about the time we're all out. We come in and form the Distributive Trades Council. And 1250 gets --

Which is a part of the RWDSU?

No, no, no, no.

It's independent?

It's independent. We're independent. 1250 maintains its number.

From the RW?

As independent.

[Begin Tape 5, Side 2]

After a while--I don't have the dates on this--there is a department store council inside there, but the numbers now are erased, and it's you're just part of 65.

And 65 is independent?

Is independent, yes.

It had left before 1250 comes in?

They all left at the same time. They worked together. Whether they left before I came in, it's hard for me to say.

What's happening here, explain exactly, the RW --

The RW is attempting to take the members back from the locals they're with and to stay with the CIO. They do it by administering trusteeships. In each case, the trustees are not permitted by the workers to even come into the headquarters, so the trustees have to operate from the offices of the RWDSU. The unions secede, and they're independent.