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Okay. So that's at the point when the 1250 had left. Okay.

Yes.

So now we're coming to the period where there come to be divisions inside of 65. What I had asked you to talk about a little bit was describe the character of 65, if you have any more to add on that.

Well, to me, 65 was a big eye-opener. I had never seen a union like that, of that size, capable of doing so many different things, and whose leaders were very, very sharp and able people. I, to this day, believe that much, if not most, of what I know of labor, I learned in 65. If you attended staff meetings led by Arthur Osman, president and founder of 65, you could not help --if your pores were open, you would learn a great deal of how to run a union and how to work at a union and how to involve workers in activities in the program. It was really an eye-opener to listen. They had a lot of pluses, a tremendous amount of pluses of what they did. They also had an enormous amount of minuses. I think that the pluses far outweigh the minuses. They were a very democratic, centralized union. The leadership came from the ranks. They involved a lot of people. They had delegate structures, stewards meeting every month, and a lot of people were involved in making decisions or in hearing the decisions and discussing the decisions, in carrying out decisions. The organizers worked their ass off and were proud, and they admired, respected, and feared the leaders. They were afraid of them, and yet they loved them. They were afraid that they would be and they were criticized left and right. They would be really chewed out all the time, and yet they busted their chops for the union. As a matter of fact, before I left, I remember that--I knew Davis -- if you look at the nightclub things, 1199 had two nights at the 65 nightclub, and so they knew me. But when the battle inside 65 was taking place, Davis, who lives in Flushing, Davis' daughter, his younger daughter Lee, and my older daughter, Nancy -- [telephone interruption] Our daughters were attending the same Jewish Sunday School. I like to refer to -- that that's a Sunday School, where you learned about Harriet Tubman and Sojourner Truth. Right here in Bayside, not far from here, a storefront, a shula. They attended the same class, and I'd see him come by. I'd bring Nancy, and he'd say, “Why don't we walk around?” And he would ask me every Sunday, “What's happening in 65?” And I would talk to him about 65. That's how we got to know each other. So that when I told him I was going to leave.

He said, “Where are you going to go?”

I said, “I don't know.”