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that they would basically vote for DeSapio. So my margin of victory was really more considerable than the number itself sounds in that the 2500 did not come out and vote for Carmine DeSapio. They did not vote for me -- they stayed home. They did not like him. They thought he had betraved them. In fact, in one of the debates I had with Carmine on TV my big sock-it-to-him statement was ... I face Carmine and I say to him: “You turned your back on that community when you moved from Charles Street to 5th Avenue.” They loved that, because that's the way that they felt.

Then in 1966, when I ran for the city council I won with about a 2500 vote margin, and the best part of that was that I carried all of the Italian districts in the South Village. There were ten election districts, and, as I think I indicated earlier, an Italian American... You know, I hate the expression “Italian American.” You never say an Irish American or Jewish American. On the other hand, if you're not careful and you say “an Italian,” somebody will say, “what do you mean -- an Italian?” Or if you say a Ukrainian: “What do you mean -- a Ukrainian? Ukrainian-American” -- you know, hyphenated.” But it isn't true. There's no reason not to say “an Italian, a Ukrainian, an Irishman.” We're all Americans, but you don't have to lose your individuality in a fortunate pluralistic society. But anyway we go through that charade so as to make sure you don't