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says with a heavy heart, “Yes.” Says the prosecutor: “Who?” Says Tip O'Neill, “Voloshan.” That's the guy who committed gross fraud and used the Speaker's office to make money. He was the closest confidant of Speaker McCormick.

So anyway, that's the story of the two character witnesses.

This brings up some questions about the so-called clubhouse atmosphere in the Congress. I mean: just how far does a member -- in this case, specifically yourself -- likely to feel that you must go to keep your relationships good without becoming a patsy?

It's a problem. What would you do in a social relationship where you have someone in your own office that you've worked with, as I did with these two guys, for four or five or so years every day -- you see them every day. You work with them four or five hours on the floor. What do you do? Now, obviously you should never violate the law, you should never commit immorality, you should never tell an untruth. But you can't run away from your responsibilities -- (a) as a citizen in this situation of being a character witness. I would never say anything about Frank Brasco or Bert Podell that was not true. The testimony I gave was accurate. It wasn't helpful to me to give it as a politician. You can't win with those cases.