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Edward KocheEdward Koche
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because one member says it's not discussable. That's ridiculous. We won't have any rules. We'll just play it by ear.” And that's how it started. We had no rules, because the great fear on the part of some of the members was that it would end up with a reform regular split. It would be involved in reform-regular politics, and people would become embarrassed. It didn't work out that way. And so we began to meet and enjoy it -- people sort of enjoyed it. They decided that breakfast wasn't the best. They'd rather have lunch. And so we started our luncheons. And in the first few months, I asked the question (Rooney used to come to those lunches): “What are the names of patronage employees that New York State has allocated to it?” Because you have a certain number of employees on a federal payroll -- minor jobs in most cases, some major ones, but mostly elevator operators, postal employees, messengers, some major clerks in some of the major offices. And Rooney had been the patronage chairman of the delegation for like 20 years. Nobody had ever asked that question. Nobody ever questioned him at all. And he said, “It's none of your business.” “Oh,” I said, “it certainly is. I want to know. Don't I have the right to know who the people are?” “I'm not going to tell you,” he said. This is all across the luncheon table.

So I pursued the matter on three different occasions, Each time I would say to the chairman, “Mr. Chairman [this is Manny Celler], I believe that you should instruct Mr. Rooney to provide that information to the delegation.” And Manny would say, “Oh, come on, John. You'll give it to us, right?” “I will not,” he



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