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much political advice, although some, but civic advice and political advice of a larger nature is what I'm saying. Maybe he wanted to have an impact on judgeships -- I don't know. It would be a good one. Norman Redlich, I want to make very clear is I'm sure incorruptible and high standards and everything else. He viewed Carmine as earthy, a leader of the proletariat, because Norman Redlich is quite left. Most people don't perceive him that way, but I do. And as a representative of people that count and these people from the Village Independent Democrats-- that Ed Koch -- a bunch of Jewish reformers, what do they know? They're sort of grafting themselves on the body politics. I'm sort of giving my gut reactions to the way Norman Redlich would see all this. There's something that can be molded by Norman Redlich -- namely, Carmine DeSapio -- and there's this cancer of the VID. That's the way I think Norman Redlich. saw it. Or at least that's the way I was Norman Redlich. Because I was outraged to hear the guy -- who's very decent; he's very wealthy, left-wing -- and here instead of helping the forces of good; he's helping the forces of evil. That's the way I saw Norman Redlich.

Well, about 20 years later -- that would bring us to about 1969, 1970, somewhere along those lines -- I am extended an invitation by Dan Collins and Norman Dorsen, who were then very active at NYU. They're professors; they're still there.