Session: 123456789101112131415161718         Page 32333435363738394041424344454647484950515253545556575859606162636465 of 617

York City kind of class as opposed to some other school like Harvard. He said, “When I went to school, not every shoemaker or butcher or son of a cloakmaker could go.” The last one is Jewish, you know. It happens my father is a fur manufacturer, a cloakmaker. My father is retired now, in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. I was shocked by it, and it stayed in my mind more than 20 years, as it did in the minds of many others in my class. We talk about it occasionally. It was the thing that you remembered about New York University -- for me. I was shooked by it.

Well, getting to Norman Redlich. When I became active with the VID, I became cognizant of Norman Redlich and Edith Lyons and a number of other people who were very important in this community and who were in sort of elevated positions. And they were in elevated positions because Edith Lyons, for example, was Mrs. Washington Square Park. Whatever Carmine wanted to do, he would check with Edith Lyons. Whatever she said, that's what went; and so Edith Lyons was pro Carmine DeSapio.

Norman Redlich, as everybody knew, was sort of a gray eminence to Carmine DeSapio. Norman Redlich is a very smart guy, and he was very involved, at least as we perceived it, in advising Carmine. And here you might talk to Norman Dorsen, who is now a professor at NYU, because he has some insight into that. He's a friend of mine, but he's also a friend or at least a close associate of Norman Redlich and knows a lot about him. In any event, Norman was considered as someone who was the gray eminence and would give Carmine advice -- not so