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don't like them -- if I like them, I'll help; but if I don't I'll look for the opportunity): “Norman, I never understood why you were so close to Carmine. What did you see in him?” And he became obviously upset and he said, “I was never close to Carmine DeSapio.” And I said to him, “Norman, now that he's in trouble, don't run away from him.” End of story. He had just been convicted about that time. So that's the story of Norman Redlich.

I might say also that neither Norman Dorsen nor Dan Collins enjoyed what I did, and when I asked them they said, “Well, the speech was not such a great speech that it could permit that kind of interlude.” Well, I didn't write the speech. I wrote the interlude.

When you say that you considered Carmine DeSapio corrupt 20 years before his conviction, what kind of corruption are you talking about?

I'm talking about real corruption, and I'm also talking about political corruption, which may not be illegal. The real corruption... The best illustration about Carmine DeSapio vis-a-vis corruption was the incident involving his leaving $11,000 in a cab. That may have been the beginning of his downfall. The story, as I recall it, was that he's the last