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city of New York. I don't know if they've ever established that with anyone. The speculation would be that they paid money in two different ways: one would be totally under the table without any notice, without anyone knowing about it -- just a corrupt payment to people who might designate them. Judges are not elected even though their names are on the ballot. They are selected. In the county of New York, if you are selected as a Democratic candidate for judge, except for the rarest situations, that's a sure thing. And therefore the battle is to get the designation. If you have your name on the ballot, then you have won so to speak. So one would be just the direct payment of money, and there and people who believe that Carmine took his share. Who knows? I don't know. But that's surely the belief. And secondly, it would be that a judge would be requested to make a payment to the county to allegedly defray expenses, and it might be a very large amount. The speculation was that to become a supreme court judge -- and I don't think it's true today anymore, but several years ago and for a longer period prior to that -- $100,000 was the alleged going rate to become a supreme court judge; a lesser amount, to become a civil court judge.. It pays less and is also for a shorter period of time. The supreme court is 14 years; the civil court is ten years. So there's that aspect of it.

And God knows what contracts, what honest graft, as it's called in the term of Boss Plunkett, where you are able to see to it that your friends get contracts, and whether they kick back,