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That would be the same category. He was in Harlem. I mean I know nothing about J. Raymond Jones, whether he's taken anything. He was a fascinating man. He looked extraordinary. He was a very big man, very heavy set, but straight as an arrow, and maybe six feet tall or more and had the head that you could only describe as the head of a bull, a huge head -- very distinguished looking. He had this accent, a sort of English Jamaican kind of accent, a little lilt to his accent. He's back in the Caribbean someplace where he was born, maybe Barbados or something like that, in the West Indies. His wife was and may still be a customs inspector, a major job in that area, and he left here and went back there.

I'll put in here as a footnote: it was in St. Thomas where Ruth Jones had that customs appointment. She and Ray Jones have a small villa high on the hill down there or they did a few years ago.

I'd like to come back to the reform movement and specifically the VID. You mentioned in the first interview that the VID was sort of a hairshirt reform movement. I heard you say that once before at a meeting of the VID. What do you mean when you say a hairshirt reform movement?

Well, I don't know the dictionary meaning of it, but the hairshirt to me has always meant someone who never is satisfied