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willing to accept them back then. BAck then, by the way, with Jerry Birbach is 1973. It doesn't go back to the ‘60s.

All right, let's go back, though, to the early '60s, which involves your getting various posts as we left off. You were elected district leader, and the election was contested, in 1963. And the special election was held about six months later, putting it in 1964. Aside from the fact that Carmine DeSapio needed to get a district leadership back if he were to get formally at least a county-wide role, why do you think that he fought so hard to come back or were there any other reasons?

I think basically the question involved was power, and you did need a district leadership position in order to be eligible to run for county leader. And I think the other thing was pride. He lost; he'd like to regain. And the third thing is I think he thought he could in.

Do you think he would have been elected county leader had he been reelected?

Yes, I do.

What did you conceive the job of district leader to be at the time you were elected or even before when you were president of the VID?