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have been very bitter experiences, and people who have been very impoverished aren't usually the people who are the best propagandists for anything. And the people who are rich think they'll take care of themselves and so they don't take any interest in the fact that a serious illness can impoverish people who are moderately well off.

Well, looking back, it would seem to me that this was a milestone, though, wasn't it, in the battle.

Well, the effort to do anything about it in those 10 years, from the time I first tried or began to be interested in legislation until '52, when we realized that the Presidential Commission would get the President off the hook politically, was just total frustration about something that should have been accepted years ago, and it shows how the people's interests and the people's business isn't served by special groups.

It's an awfully good illustration, too, the whole story...

It shows how many things we didn't get done as compared with how much we did get done in research, in supporting research; we were so much more successful in our research efforts. The doctors didn't quite know how to attack the research effort, and they also didn't know much about it, that is, that it was