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states. Now some of the states use it for treatment just because the medical associations don't want private doctors to lose the money. This might represent 10 or 15 dollars a visit -- in some cases 25 dollars, depending on what a doctor chooses to charge -- and they don't want to lose the money to private practitioners. That's the bitter fact of life.

In spite of all this damn nonsense, the death rates declined, but it could decline 20 percent faster right away if there was a real stepped-up care program.

Have you been able to break that impasse with Governor Carey?

No, I haven't tried recently. Dr. Cahill's personality is such that you just can't get around him. I'll just have to wait for a new governor.

It's something so self evident to do, the story is so clear that it's a way to save lives of the citizens of the State. New York State is not one of the best states of the Union on this decline in stroke or heart deaths. It's just a fault of Dr. Cahill, and Gov. Carey really knows so little about medicine that he relies on Cahill, and you can't get around Cahill. (cross talk)

The way was pointed out to you.

The way was pointed out to me. There we are. You know