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has got leucocyte and fibroblast clones, and they think: “What's the use of going through all that? Let's get something they don't have.” So there's a race between them and Hoffman-LaRoche on immune interferon, because immune is said in animals in mice and in test tubes to potentiate leucocyte interferon. So if it potentiates it, it may mean that you don't need to have all those different clones separated out.

It would be a short-cut.

Yes, it might be a short-cut. We don't know.

You told me last year that Schering was at the point of cloning the leucocytes, and they were about to give some to Dr. Gutterman.

Well, they had some, but Hoffman-LaRoche did clone and they did give it to them last February. So Schering has clones from Weisman -- you know, this man in Zurich who made the first clone.

And got all the publicity.

Yes.

But they didn't have the great scientific backup that Roche, Genentech, have, and so they had to farm out some of the work, and it just wasn't