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Maybe these scientists are not very flexible in their thinking.

They are not. They are like everybody else. They're not very flexible.

But it seems to me that the NIH, being the recipient of federal funds in such large numbers...

Yes, but, you see, there are so few people around that have any great money. In the first place, nobody there gets more salary than $60,000 a year. Now, in medicine...

That's the limit.

That's the limit, and most of them get 50.000 or 55,000. and below that most of the people are working for 40.000 and 45,000. These people are not very entreprenurial. It's the people in drug houses who have people that they pay a lot who have imagination and who have money to back up their ideas; and if their ideas fail, well, that's all right -- but their ideas have failed in NCI for a long time. Our present methods are very toxic and difficult to take. But as they've gotten going in one area and they have some results, they are not quick to change. It's like going from carriages to automobiles. The Fisher brothers didn't like it originally. (laughs)