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approved of, and the rigidity of the way that the Institutes are being run won't forever be as tense as it was under Shannon.

Have you gotten to know Marston well?

I know Marston, but not intimately. He's a very agreeable, pleasant person who's not got an enormous drive to get results, but who also won't take tremendous trouble to prevent other people from getting results, which Shannon was willing to do. He'd be willing to try to trip up anybody trying to get any results. there's a kind of superciliousness among doctors, that they resent big changes in medicine and the acclaim that comes to doctors who make them.

This sounds like a very human trait.

Yes, it is a very human trait, but people never think of this as happening in things that have such tremendous implications of life and death for humanity.

You think of the objective, the purpose --

Yes, well, this was one thing -- literally anybody would have been better than Shannon, it seemed to me. because he dominated everything, everybody, and prevented information on what NIH was