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on the part of the AMA who thought he was too liberal, and after a few weeks Finch named Dr. Roger Egeberg, dean of the University of Southern California Medical School. Egeberg is a very friendly and pleasant man, but -- and would naturally be against cuts in medical research and health, but has had no close contact with Nixon. Neither Finch nor Egeberg seem to have any leverage with the budget or with Nixon to stop these cuts, so that although they're friendly and constructive, they don't protect us on the money, and if you don't have money -- money is like frozen energy -- the less money you have, the less energy you have to put on the throttle.

However, I did dine with Egeberg and -- at Trader Vic's, late in July, when he came on the job and we are very friendly and hope the friendship will be constructive.

Would you as a kind of footnote give me your estimate of Dr. Knowles?

I don't know Dr. Knowles. As far as I'm concerned I know Egeberg much better, and I don't think Knowles would have been able to get more money from Nixon either, although maybe he would have. I just don't know. He would have had a hard time going over Finch.