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There's something that Punch doesn't want to accept. He doesn't want to have the Times have to rely on the rest of the Times Company, you see - doesn't want it carried by the rest of the corporation.

Well, I don't want to sound too much like an economic determinist, but the whole relationship of anti-business or not anti-business may be seen in the context of the Times' own fortunes.

No question. No question. I assure you, I'm not necessarily an economic determinist, but what the hell, that of course was very much a part of the picture. And that affected by - in a none too subtle way, or maybe more or less subtle way -

But before we stop this, I have to say again that the direct interference, on this basis, with the specific editorials or with specific editorial positions, was rare. Indirect, I felt this, and I expressed to my colleagues concern, increasing concern about this, because I simply felt it in the air - to my, two or three close colleagues.

Who would they be?

Raskin. My associate, assistant editor, Fred Hechinger, who succeeded Raskin as assistant editor of the editorial page when Raskin retired.

He had been your education editor.