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Oh, sure. And it was not only group therapy, but - which I don't think worked. In fact, it led ultimately to the firing or resignation or dismissal of two or three of the top executives of the Times in the business department. I'm sure that it had a great deal to do with the departure of such people as one that I particularly admired, Andrew Fisher, the then business manager of the Times, whose conflicts with Gruson came out in this very severely. I don't remember, and don't really want to remember, the details of all this, but anyway, I felt it was quite a destructive performance.

This analysis went on for many, many months, and results, by the way, in a book by Chris Argyris, whose title was Behind the Front Page.

I could easily locate the book which dealt with this whole question of the interpersonal relationships of the Times, simply not using the name of the Times. It was called “the newspaper,” given the name of The Planet, but it was obviously recognizable. This was done with the publisher's prior permission, so that these conversations that I'm talking about were all recorded - with the knowledge that this was probably all going to appear ultimately in book form.

And one of these conversations that I had, one particular one, with the publisher and Argyris, the professor, the explicit question of the interests of the Times as an - as a business operation, versus the interests of the public, as I conceived them from an editorial position, came under discussion. It was a conversation which we were both conscious was being recorded, although I thought that ultimately, if anything of this were ever published,