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strictly artistic matters on the other, but were matters of public policy. Obviously, I'm referring to the student riots, everything that went on here at Columbia.

In '68.

And of course I'm also referring to the Metropolitan Museum's terrible controversies in respect to the park, under Hoving. And I eventually went to Punch and said to him that, while acknowledging that I had specifically advised him that I thought it was perfectly OK for him to become a member of the boards of these institutions, I was changing my mind; and I urged him to get off, to get off, which of course was advice that he discarded and disregarded.

But at least I did change my mind, and told him so. And I think, in view of the fact that these are likely to be in such controversial areas, I feel - several years later - still uneasy about the publisher of the Times being even on such boards as those of the large educational institutions here and the large cultural institutions. I'm uneasy about it for the reason that I felt during the height of those controversies, that it was wrong. There's no doubt that by being publisher of the paper, this certainly inhibited our commentary on issues in which those institutions were involved.

There's just no question that our comment was inhibited. I will not say that we ever said anything, on either of these controversies, that I felt was wrong or improper, or that we said something only because Punch, the publisher of the paper, was a member of their