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respective boards. I don't think we ever did that. But there's no question that we didn't say as much as we would have said, if he had not been a member of the board.

I think it's an unhealthy thing. So my ultimate conclusion on this is that a newspaper publisher in that kind of position should give his support, all that he wants, to these institutions, in any public way he wants to, but being on the board is a little bit too close.

It's an interesting commentary, in terms of social change, that this never came up, that I can recall, in the life of Arthur Hays Sulzberger.

No. But you see, there wasn't that kind of bitter controversy between Columbia University and -

That's right, I'm saying, in terms of social change -

- and the society in which Columbia University existed. That's exactly right. There never was.

He never had any misgivings about that.

And I never had the slightest doubt, when Punch was going onto that board, that it was perfectly OK for him to do that. I remember saying that it's a family tradition now.