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It was a fairly dramatic departure from anything in the history not only of the Times but of almost any newspaper I've ever heard of.

That's right. But I think, on Punch's behalf, I think that he did see that the relationships within the paper were not good, and he felt that maybe this would be one way - he was sold the idea that this might be one way to do something about it. I just think it was the wrong way. But I think that that was a perfectly good motivation of Punch, in planning to do -

Yes, well, I think this comes out in the book itself, of course, his motivation. But you don't have any personal knowledge of how he fell in with this particular -

Of how it was actually brought to his attention? No, I really don't. I don't recall how. I really don't know how that happened, who brought Argyris to Punch's attention, or perhaps he initiated it himself.

I'm rather astonished that it didn't cause more of a stir - this book?

The book, it's surprising that it didn't.

Yes, it's full of dynamite.

As far as I'm concerned, nothing that I said in there would I retract a word of. I feel no compunction about it. But I felt, from the New York Times' point of view, it was very bad