Part: 1234         Session: 1234         Page 222223224225226227228229230231232233234235236237238239240241242243244245246247248249250251252253254255256257258259260261 of 512

book, and I tried very hard to, when I learned this and when the manuscript was given to me for review, before publication, I did everything I could to try to disguise the conversations, the authors of conversations, the whole situation, to try, vainly of course, to get it as far away from identification with the New York Times as possible. A perfectly futile effort, at which I spent quite a lot of time, but I just feel that the whole thing wasn't very useful.

Why do you think Punch brought him in? I think you touched on that earlier, but I'd like - having read the book, I find it rather astonishing that this social scientist and his aide, he had an aide too, did he not?

Yes.

Was given this commission. And he speaks of you as “clients.”

Yes. I don't really understand why. I think, the only answer I can really give you is that I think Punch was disturbed, as he well should have been, about the separateness of the various operations of the Times, the fact that, as Talese pointed out in his book, there were these separate baronies, awful word, but I guess it had a good deal of justification to it, and I think Punch was trying to kind of loosen up the relationships inside the organization. But I just felt that this was not the way to do it, by getting in an outside behavioral sociologist, to have these interviews. I didn't think this was a good idea, but I went along with it, as everybody else did, because Punch wanted it done.