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sister, my aunt -- Auntie, as we called her -- moved to New York soon after that from Philadelphia, and grew up there.

How old were you when you moved to New York?

Well, I was born in '13, and I think we actually moved to New York, I think it would have been late 1915 or early 1916.

So you were really a small child.

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes, the early history I've been telling you is obviously not from my direct memory but from impressions, plus my father's memoirs and family lore.

Oh, I started to say something very important before and somehow got diverted. But it is important in discussing this name change. My father was attacked for allegedly trying to duck out from the Jewish name because Ochs certainly was much more Jewish sounding than Oakes. This actually had nothing to do with it; but my father was criticized I guess on and off by many people for the rest of his life for changing the name. Many, many Jewish people did change their names during the first part of this century, from a Jewish sounding name to an English sounding name in order to kind of conceal or curtain the fact that they were Jewish. But this was quintessentially not my father's motive -- quite the opposite.

In my father's case, although he was typically attacked for this -- and I remember as I started to say earlier, seeing somewhere some letters from Jewish organizations or Jewish