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-- this would have been so logically a matter to discuss at that time.

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-- go into another if you --

No, it's fine.

But anyway, I think this is relevant, and it certainly is relevant to this exchange, and probably this conversation with Rusk that I distinctly remember. It was over a quiet drink at the end of a day in the State Department, his big office in the State Department, and we were relaxed and just talking about this whole question of Vietnam and his U.S. Policy at that point. And although, again, I don't have a sure date, it seems to me it would fit very well into the date of this exchange with Arthur Sulzberger that we just were talking about.

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Do you think you were able to make any impression on him when you had that discussion?

I don't know. I really can't answer that. I don't know. We certainly had a nice, cordial discussion, in which I distinctly remember that, as far as I was concerned, I -- At the end of it, I was adhering to my view that this was a civil war, more as I remember putting it, this is becoming more and more in the nature of a civil war than it may have started out