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to be. Of course, it obviously did start out with a lot of help with Communist -- from the outside. But Rusk -- I can't truthfully tell you that Rusk on this one did any more than listen very courteously and argue with me that it was not. I can't tell you that I made any impression on him.

Good. Just to kind of wrap up, at least for today's discussion on Vietnam for now, I'm wondering what the impact was of the publication of the Pentagon Papers, what you learned from that publication in terms of what you hadn't known, and the impact of that on your thinking about the government. That's a very big question.

What I -- My own personal reaction as --

Were you surprised?

-- to the Pentagon Papers?

Yes.

I guess I'd have to say that I -- Sure. I think I'd have to say that I was surprised at the depth and the extent of the concealment if this is the question you're asking?

Yes.

What was the year? Was it very early '70s?