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think, in the Washington bureau of the Times. In any case, whatever he was, there's no doubt that he wanted to become editor. As I understand it -- I don't suppose it could ever be documented -- but he was wildly disappointed and embittered or angry at Merz, anyway -- probably at Arthur Sulzberger, too, as far as I know, because he hadn't appointed --

Of course, subsequently Krock became actually far better known, at least to the public, than Charlie Merz, because as chief correspondent, a Washington correspondent and as a columnist, etc., etc., and as a couple of times -- once or twice -- Pulitzer Prize winner for scoops he had had, Krock became much better known -- nothing that he liked better than to be better known -- than Charlie Merz, who was a rather retiring individual, anyway.

But that's a long explanation of why Merz made that remark to me. Too long, no doubt. But anyway, that's the explanation.

It's a very interesting piece of history.

Moving along in your own career, you were writing with probably pretty steady frequency in the '50s about the environment, and I would just like for us to talk about that because so far in your oral history we haven't discussed that or it hasn't been discussed, and it has become a major part of your career.

I guess so.