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head of all the “environmental” presidents, all the presidential administrations in my lifetime. I think Carter was the best from this point of view. This doesn't mean that I remained a tremendous admirer of Carter throughout his administration, but I think he was a whole lot better than he was generally given credit for during his four-year term.

If you had to state his policy around conservation and the environment, what would it be? If you had to characterize what his pro-active programs were for the environment?

An understanding of the relationship of preservation of the natural environment to the greatest extent possible, as an essential to both the physical and, I have to say, moral health of the country. I think he clearly understood that, for example, Carter understood the importance of trying to preserve water supplies in a pure state; also, the importance of clean air, clean water; the importance of preserving biological diversity; the importance of preserving, to the greatest degree possible, the -- to prevent, I should say -- the draining of swamps and wetlands. All of which is the relationship, the inter-relationship, of human health and happiness with the preservation of the physical world around us, to the greatest degree possible. Obviously without going to crazy extremes, but the inter-relationship of man, generally, to the natural world.

It seemed to me that Carter, more than any president, let's say, since FDR [Franklin Delano Roosevelt], understood this. But, certainly, nobody between Roosevelt and Carter, even though, as I said in a previous session, Jack Kennedy appointed, as his Secretary of the Interior, somebody who did understand this. Therefore, Kennedy should get a lot of credit for the appointment and the backing-up support of Secretary [Stewart Lee] Udall, Stew Udall, whom I talked about in a previous session. So it's hard to put one finger on the