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will get some auxiliary benefit (although he didn't use that word). They won't be paid quite so low.” I don't know whether that was true or not, but he paid no attention to them. He thought that anybody who wasn't smart enough to organize themselves, didn't deserve anything. He'd say it, “They don't deserve anything. Let them organize.” He strictly was aware of the skilled workers only and workers of high skill who could shut down an industry by depriving that industry of their skill. They had power because of that.

He was opposed to all trade schools. Any kind of an industrial or trade school he was opposed to because there should be nobody taught the trade except the sons and nephews of the people who knew the trade - hand it on, select your own apprentices, train just enough apprentices to replace you and not enough to expand the trade.

He was very interesting and had a totally different attitude than now exists. It was the common attitude. I've heard many another trade unionist whom I knew before and since of the old type who had the same attitude. They'll tell you how they gathered around a lamp in a little dark back room in St. Louis. They formed this union. They speak of how they struggled, what they had to contend with and the men wouldn't join the union, were afraid, and what