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Hillman and others too. Hillman was certainly the best thinking of the lot--I mean, he could think in detail about these programs. There they met for the first time, at least effectively. They may have been introduced before, but I don't believe they had. They met effectively, and Hillman took a shine to Lewis. General Johnson, with his talks about the vertical and horizontal unions, you see, found that Hillman and Lewis were both of them quite powerful people and quite strong-minded, and that they agreed with him about the type of union that should be encouraged in the new industries.

They began harping on those phrases, you see--the very phrases that General Johnson used. I think it was through that association in the Labor Committee of the N.R.A. that Hillman and Lewis made their first rapprochement. And I think that Lewis fell into this plan, which was very subtle--Hillman was a very subtle person, remember. He was very subtle. If he had something to plan, he had it all worked out before he introduced it to you. He, I'm sure, had this idea of a committee. I'm sure he had it in mind. And he proposed it to Lewis. Lewis thought well of it, you see. Then they got the committee. They got the A.F. of L. to organize and authorize a committee, you remember? The Committee on Industrial Organization. That was thought to be a great asset.

The plan was Hillman's. Lewis went into that, and anything