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“Oh,” I said, “he's done pretty well, Mr. President. He's really done very well.”

“Oh, he's got some back-biting streaks in him and so forth, you know. He hasn't been on the level all the time.”

“Well,” I said, “that's neither here nor there. He was certainly a very good administrator of the R.F.C., and as Secretary of Commerce, he's picked up things. You've used the Secretary of Commerce for a good many people, to fill them in, you know. You appointed Harry Hopkins to fit it in with the great American businessman, and you appointed Averell Harriman to fill him in while he was waiting for something else. And Jesse has really worked it. He hasn't really done too much towards being Secretary of Commerce, but he's thought about it a little bit, and he's done something. I wouldn't be sore at Jesse about it.”

He said, “Well, that's all right. If Henry wants it, he can have it, and you tell him so, and I'll talk with him.

So I told him so, and I guess they talked on the telephone, probably had a personal conversation. I don't know about that.

At any rate, you see, Harry Hopkins was still alive-- remember? I said to the President, “How are you going to maneuver this? How are you going to manipulate it? Jesse's got to resign with good will, be amiable. How are you going to arrange it?”

“Oh yes,” he said, “I think I can arrange that all right.