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Then he dreamed the great dream, you see, of world power for labor. I think It grew out of his apparent success, or it seemed apparent to him, in the management of this industry program during the War, and he saw no reason why labor all over the world shouldn't-- He didn't think it out. It was emotional, and I knew it was this love of power that rose up within him. It was just as though you could see the Devil tempting him. I mean, I was almost conscious that I could see the Devil behind him urging him to think himself magnificent and grand and wonderful, and swelling up and going up higher and higher “on the pitch”.

Did he give any indication that he thought that he would be one of the leaders in this?

Oh, yes, yes. Everything was going to be all right because he was going to be the leader. The leader was what he saw himself being.

Where did he think Kuznetzov would end up?

Well, I don't know where he thought Kuznetzov would end up, or some of the others. But he saw himself as handling this thing, and he was just swelled with it. In thinking of himself as the power and in thinking of labor as the power, he had thought of Roosevelt as being just “patronizing” to the labor people--being nice to them, and being friendly and