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Did you meet any officials at the ministerial level in South Africa?

Not directly.

Did you meet either of the Bothas? One, of course, is now President, but I believe was a minister at the time.

No, the closest I got to that was the second or third level government people when we spent some time in Pretoria for a day or two. It's a fascinating police state, where it was clear to me that within a matter of hours after I spoke with anybody that the responsible government agency or officials would know about the conversation. And I took that into account.

You did take it into account?

Oh, of course.

You feel this was because those other officials were immediately and perhaps verbatim reporting, or do you believe that you were bugged at a distance?

Both. But, you know, that was part of the facts of life. And we were there obviously with the knowledge and permission of the government. The government had to prepare our staying at the