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people. By realistic I mean they did not hide from patterns of realities which affected their lives and their predicaments. Even the compromisers were realistic compromisers. For example, I'm thinking about the homeland chiefs with whom I talked. They knew what they were up against and they were unwilling to indulge themselves into just emotional rhetoric or that sort.

And in regard to the relationship with Israel, it's very powerful. I mean, some of the richest people in South Africa are Jews. I think the de Beers are in the group. They're aware of that, but what do they do about it? They don't seem to me to be people willing to fight that kind of power with emotional rhetoric.

Are there any other comments you want to make on South Africa? Or your visit there?

It was the most pathetic place I've ever been to, including the Caribbeans. I haven't been to Asia. No, it's very pathetic. You know, the pathos of South Africa is indicated by the evidence of wealth and high standards of living for the whites and the tremendous economic power and potential, and the tremendous fear and insecurity, realistic fear and insecurity of the white people.

So that's my summary. That's my bottom line about South Africa. It's “Cry, My Beloved Country”, if it were my beloved country. They ought to be crying all the time. They are crying